Astrology 101: Are You Shameless?

August 26th, 2008 at 6:32 pm (Astrology 101)

If you have Venus or Mars in detriment in the Ascendant, the astrological writer Hermes seems to think so.

In the Centiloquy of Hermes Trismegistus, Aphorism #25* says:

“In the nativities of women, when the Ascendant is in any of the domiciles of Venus with Mars in them or when the Ascendant is in any of the domiciles of Mars with Venus in them, the woman will be shameless; and it will be the same if she has Capricorn in the Ascendant.”

A workable definition of shamelessness is public immorality; Hermes refers to sexual immorality, but this is somewhat narrow based on our examples. Also, as our examples below show, the native does not have to be female for this rule to apply. I excluded Capricorn rising from the examination, because this clause is unclear: Is Hermes referring to Venus or Mars in the Ascendant in Capricorn? Or is having Capricorn rising enough?

1. Bill Clinton – Libra rising, Mars in Libra. Clinton’s failings are a matter of public record, though the publication was not exactly voluntary, which may be a necessary component of shamelessness.

2. Pete Rose – Aries rising, Venus in Aries. A record-breaking baseball player at the epicenter of a major baseball gambling scandal. Rose bet on his own team for years, and eventually served time for tax evasion, presumably because of the underreported gambling income. Despite his obvious skill as a baseball player, Rose will probably never be admitted to the Hall of Fame due to the gambling scandal.

3. Anais Nin – Libra rising, Mars in Libra. A published diarist who described her personal experiences with sex; her writing was meant for public consumption. This seems the closest to Hermes’ definition of shamelessness – intentional display of one’s personal life for public view.

4. Roman Polanski – Libra rising, Mars in Libra. Film director who fled to France due to being indicted for sex with a 13-year-old in the U.S. During an unrelated libel trial twenty years later, with Polanski as plantiff, it was remarked: “Surely a man like this hasn’t got a reputation to tarnish?”

5. Groucho Marx – Scorpio rising, Venus in Scorpio. Not particularly known for public vices, perhaps the most scandalous fact is that all of Marx’s wives were considerably younger than him, with the last one over 40 years younger than Marx. Still, this hardly qualifies as shameless, even by traditional, conservative societal standards.

6. Grace Slick – Scorpio rising, Venus in Scorpio. The vocalist for Jefferson Airplane, Slick has had a typical rock‘n’roll life; famous lovers, child out of wedlock, and run-ins with the law for various infractions.

Many charts that I examined (with a reasonably specific birth time) with the Aphorism #25 characteristics do not seem especially remarkable for their shamelessness. Of course, perhaps we just don’t know them well enough!

Dear reader: what do you think? Is Aphorism 25 right?

*As translated by James Herschel Holden in Five Medieval Astrologers.

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13 Comments »

  1. Kim said,

    August 26th, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    hey thanks, I’ve been wondering about the concept of shame in astrology and where it may lurk in a chart. But perhaps it’s just an old story that women who have a strong mars should be ashamed of themselves? Certainly many people would have considered Anais Nin to be shameful. Perhaps it was a balance of masculine/feminine energies that were outside the acceptable norms that caused a problem?

  2. Ella Rae said,

    August 26th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    I think Aphorism 25 is most definitely right. As a matter of fact it makes me want to get spanked. Guess that’s how Venus square Asc people reacts to these types of accusations… the square is a more challenging aspect after all.

    I bet that Venusians and Martians are more shameless than other types.

    I’m pretty certain that having Capricorn Rising is enough… They are always, always, very guilty, bad, bad, bad. Shame is Capricorn’s middle name. But they do try to get away with it, don’t they? Lol, I’m having some fun here.

    Why has this guy’s Wisdom been lost in obscurity for so long?

    Really interesting post, Gryphon. Hope it gets some better discussion than my contribution. 5 Medieval Astrologers. So much fun.

  3. Polymon said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 4:09 am

    Hello guys,

    I would say have a look at the ASC ruler also. Venus or Mars in Detriment in the ASC is just one testimony. By the way, keep the Native’s temperament in mind: One with Sanguine and/or Choleric temperament is more likely to be shameless in public than one with Phlegmatic and/or Melancholic temperament.

  4. yuzuru said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 6:44 am

    Hi, Nina
    it is possible, cause capricorn is one of the “four legged” signs, which were signs of depravation, when venus were in it.

    I agree with the temperament comment by polymon.

    I would think some counter-examples would do fine, also. People who have mars and venus in ASC in detriment but are famous by their restriction ?

  5. Nina Gryphon said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 7:57 am

    Hi Yuzuru,

    You are right; also, Capricorn is the domicile of Saturn and exaltation of Mars, both malefics.

    The counter-examples I found all had very uncertain birth times. For example, Pope John Paul II had Mars in Libra. The problem is that he gives his birth time as “between 5 and 6 o’clock” so he could well have Libra rising with Mars in the 12th house or Virgo rising with Mars in Libra at the end of the first house. Neither of these conditions would qualify.

    Another example is St. Therese de Lisieux, but her birthtime is only on the half-hour, so we cannot be certain of her Ascendant either.

    If you or anyone else finds counter-examples with what looks like an exact birth time, feel free to add & discuss them here.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

  6. Nina Gryphon said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 8:15 am

    Hi Polymon,

    Thanks for your very good point. I think you are right, but I could see a publicly immoral melancholic or phlegmatic. Just in a low-energy kind of way. I think it has more to do with the overall quality of the chart; I wouldn’t want to label a choleric more likely to be shameless; a phlegmatic with the wrong kind of chart just wouldn’t care, either.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

  7. Nina Gryphon said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 8:37 am

    Hi Kim,

    Thanks for your comment; I think the concept of shame is an interesting one. The main thing to keep in mind is that this was written about 1500+ years ago, from the perspective of a conservative, traditional society.

    Shamelessness in this context seems to have to do with gender norms and general double standards. Note that Aphorism 25 refers to women only, though there are plenty of men with that configuration who are indeed shameless.

    To me, the way we view this aphorism today has a lot to do with societal expectations and the fascinating ways they’ve changed. Obviously, when this text was written, it was OK for men to be publicly immoral, but not women. Today, it is OK for both sexes to be publicly immoral. I can’t help but wonder if this is what passes for progress.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

  8. Nina Gryphon said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 8:46 am

    Hi Ella Rae,

    Thanks for sharing. Good point about Capricorn rising; there might be shameless people who really just couldn’t care less, but there are those who do care, but do what they want regardless.

    Several of the people listed in the post did not intend to get caught, but their actions were made public regardless. Is that shamelessness? Perhaps the way they reacted to their outing is the shameless part; they all went on to try to exonerate themselves publicly, instead of embracing their guilt in a genuine way.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

  9. Kathy said,

    August 27th, 2008 at 10:15 am

    Really interesting post - thanks! I think your last comment hit it right on: Whether one is outed or not isn’t the issue so much as how one responds to the outing.

    I think this is because shame, at its core, is fear of exposure of one’s own essential “badness.” If a person responds fearlessly to having his badness exposed, then the existence of “proper shame” is in doubt: You must not *really* feel you are bad if you deny, excuse or fight the charges. That’s why we see it as so important that public officials are “chagrined” or “contrite” when they’re caught: Contrition is evidence of proper shame.

    My instinct would be to look also at the Mars/Venus relationship to Saturn, and at Saturn’s general placement in the chart, to understand the person’s particular shame dynamic. Now I’m going to go spelunking through my files to see what I can see. Thanks - great food for thought.

  10. Eme said,

    September 1st, 2008 at 7:12 am

    That’s so interesting about Capricorn on the Ascendant and shamelessness. I would think it would be the opposite since Capricorn is ruled by Saturn. I would imagine that Capricorn on the Ascendant would make one wrestle with pangs of conscience and internalize a stern taskmaster.

  11. Nina Gryphon said,

    September 3rd, 2008 at 8:53 am

    Hi Eme,

    I think it’s because Capricorn is the domicile and exaltation of both malefics. In traditional texts, heavy malefic influence is supposed to make people, especially women, immoral.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

  12. Scott said,

    September 17th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    Dear NIna,
    Here’s a brief footnote to one of your example charts in case anyone else has encountered Grace Slick’s claim in her biography ‘Somebody to Love? (and before that book, in numerous interviews) that she ‘made up’ her birth time out of the blue. However, Lois Rodden’s researches discovered that when Ms. Slick had to to resubmit her birth certificate to ‘the authorities’ in 1982, she posted this exact time on the birth certificate (a copy of which Lois Rodden kept in her files) along with all otherwise accurate information. As the ensuing natal chart fits Ms. Slick to a T, I think it was an interesting ‘celebrity strategy’ she devised in order to prevent her chart being used excessively as an ‘example’ chart- tell everyone that your ‘true’ birth time is false and create ‘false doubt’ about the time! I plan to teach a class this autumn where we will use rectification methods to see if this ‘made up’ birth time matches specific and dramatic life events in her life.

  13. Nina Gryphon said,

    September 18th, 2008 at 8:19 am

    Hi Scott,

    Isn’t that interesting! Thanks for the tidbit. I wonder if that has been going on with the presidential candidates this year as well.

    Best wishes,
    Nina

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